Interview With....

Stephen Jones has been rugby correspondent of the Sunday Times in England for 26 years, covered all six World Cups and a total of seven Lion tours. He was  twice named UK sports journalist of the Year and has  won 11 other journalistic awards. His  “Endless Winter “ was the UK sports book of the year and  “On My Knees “ was the story of England’s 2003 World Cup triumph, in which he was effusive about what he saw as the brilliant Australian staging of that tournament

“ Lion Man, “ the life story of Ian McGeechan, which Stephen co-wrote, is out in October. In this book, Ian ranks Bob Dwyer, and also Bob Templeton,  as among the best coaches he came up against. However, he expresses no remorse about the English coppers and the goings on during the 1989 Lions tour of Australia.

Stephen says his best experience ever on any sportsground was watching Bruce Springsteen last June at Hampden Park, Glasgow.

He coaches Maidenhead U16s, the reigning Berkshire county champions and his proudest rugby moment came on tour to Devon last Summer. Maidenhead took a squad of 51 lads, played three top Devon teams at three separate grounds on Saturday, and three more at different grounds on Sunday, and won all six games.

Barry Ross spoke to the much-read media man a couple of days after the 2009/2010 British season had begun.


BR- You wrote an article on 30 August titled " Rugby's summer of shame. " The Harlequins and Bath situations were your main focus. Is this the tip of the iceberg and is there more to come?

 SJ-I may be wrong, but I feel that the Bath cocaine story was a lifestyle and social thing rather than a rugby problem. The Harlequins affair was definitely a rugby problem – they were horrible and grim cheats and they and Dean Richards deserved everything they got. They should have been ejected from the Heineken Cup.

Is it the tip of the iceberg? I think not, but who can be sure? But the worst thing about Bloodgate was not the fake blood capsules but the lies of the cover-up.

BR- Despite this, crowd figures are good even at this early stage of the season. Eg Leicester Tigers have had their best ever season ticket sales, while the season-opening double header at Twickenham drew a good crowd. Why are crowds on the up and up ?

SJ- On the first weekend of the season, there was a record aggregate attendance for any weekend of the Guinness Premiership, ever. The double-header, including the discredited Quins,  drew 67000. The next weekend, Saracens played Northampton at Wembley and this also did well. Obviously, the recession is biting into profits, but the appeal of the Guinness Premiership is holding up brilliantly. It seems that people are not losing faith with rugby.


BR- How do you rate the standard of English club rugby?

SJ- Who cares? It is compelling, tribal, usually packed out, and the Lions have shown that Brit and Irish players can entertain too. What more do you want? There  is more bite in the atmosphere at  a Worcester Warriors match than any Wallaby home game, and I am being serious. However, now and again you do get the odd utter turkey.  To be serious, our rugby can be variable.
 
BR- What about the next tier down, Magners league etc

SJ- Not so good, because too many of the teams in it lack independence, they are just offshoots of their Unions. It is improving, but also the kick off times are crackers, just to please tiny TV companies


BR- International crowds are 80,000 plus sellouts. Comment on this.

SJ- The enduring appeal of Test rugby. There is too much of it, of course. It was far better and more exciting when the Wallabies came over every four or five years and played a long tour – unless it was Alan Jones’s bunch. Now the Wallabies come every year. But the tests are huge events, they drive rugby

It is also vital to realise now that there is another game in town in Europe. The club events are now very big. The attendances and sense of occasion at the knock-out stages of the Heineken Cup are challenging Test rugby. People are showing signs of diverting away from international trips because of the silly kick off times and travel rip-offs, choosing to follow their teams in Europe.


BR- Has English rugby got a duty of care with other countries not so fortunate? Specifically Australia, who competes against league, Aussie Rules and football which is really establishing itself now in Australia.

SJ- Yes, it has a total duty of care, to remind Australian rugby every day that to beat off challenges of other sports can be done, not by mimicking them, but by making Aussie rugby union outstanding and staying totally true to what Union is. Don’t whine about lack of attacking rugby when you went 10 years without producing a prop. Last time I looked, power forward play cleared the field for brilliant backs.

Back union for what it is, brilliant and imperfect and annoying and compelling and create a culture in which big young lads want to get in there and graft. You didn’t harp on much about wanting to look like Rugby League when Kearnsy (Phil Kearns) and that Richard Harry fellow were around. And you’ve all but wasted Sharpe – I think he is one of the great forwards of the era. Get some forwards, make forward play cool.
And when will you realise that rugby league is dire and dying  and that their  players are useless in Union. In the UK, league is disappearing off the face of the Earth. And you wanted us to adopt ELVs which made us look like that.


BR- A long term criticism of northern hemisphere rugby from Australia and other southern nations is that not enough tries are being scored. They point to the recent Wallabies-All Blacks test when only one try was scored, while there were 61 tries in eight Aussie League games that same weekend, or an average of more than seven a game. Your comments

SJ- Did no-one out there see the Lions in South Africa? Some of the best attacking rugby for years. Good for good old league if they have lots of tries. So seven  tries a game is good. What about 12 tries a game? Does that make it even better? What about 15 tries a game? Yes, tries are nice. But so what?

BR- What do you think of John O’Neill (Chief Executive of the Australian Rugby Union)?

SJ- Rugby needs more of him.  John and I failed to se eye to eye on the ELVs, but I think he is terrific. I hated it when he got stick for that line about everyone hating the English. It was clearly a bit of fun and the English should have copped it.

BR- What is your main criticism of the discarded ELVs ?
 
SJ- In concept, birth, trial, and execution they were shambolically misguided and they betrayed rugby. People who were in favour of them tried to bully them through, they were designed by a panel that was totally unrepresentative and none of them worked (and I mean none). They were a disgrace. Apart from that I liked them.


BR- Were there any of the ELVs you didn't mind ?
 
SJ- Yes, that one where the groundsman could have two sugars in his tea. Even the one taking the offside line back five yards is rubbish. Rubbish. Long live Dick Marks. (Now, 67 years of age, he was Director of the Australian National Coaching Scheme and played 17 tests for the Wallabies as a talented centre) .


BR- Why is it that  southern hemisphere countries have won five of the six World Cups and the end of year tours to Europe over the past 10 years or so, have resulted in the southerners winning many more tests than their northern opponents?

SJ- Abysmal refereeing and the lucky scoring of nine or ten late tries by the Southern teams. 


BR- Compare Tri-nations to Six nations.

SJ- The Tri Nations is a little samey, and I hate, hate, hate those kicks-offs on gloomy Kiwi nights. For goodness sake, get the Pumas in and liven it up a little. Or a lot. The Six Nations is culturally far more varied and they only play each other once, not 26 times like they do in the Tri Nations.

BR- You were in South Africa recently with the Lions. How much pressure both on and off the field were the Lions subjected to ?

SJ- The South Africans don’t deserve another Lions tour as they devalued the Lions and ripped off the fans. The Lions in Australia in 2013 will be sensational. But the Lions in Africa (and this time I am serious) were catastrophically unlucky. They were the better side in the series and they were profoundly hard done by.


BR- Was the punishment for the armguard wearing by the Springboks strong enough?

SJ- Frankly, I don’t think the Lions gave a monkey’s what the Boks wore. Their gesture in support of Bakkies Botha was really well-timed. It coincided almost exactly with the serious shoulder operation Adam Jones was having after Botha smashed his shoulder with an illegal charge.


BR- What about the Schalk Burger alleged gouging ?

SJ- Totally beneath him, and he should have got six months. Shocking

BR- Is the awarding of the 2015 World Cup to England a sign of things to come. In other words does their strong currency and population mean that that the really big rugby events will go to Britain in the future ?

SJ- Not really, but I do think that every other World Cup must go to a major rugby Union with commercial clout – so you rotate England, France, Australia and South Africa and then insert the others.
 
BR- Thoughts on Japan having the 2019 World Cup ?

SJ- Brilliant.

BR- Thoughts on rugby in the Olympics ?

SJ- Brilliant and a terrible shame it wasn’t in time for London 2012

BR- What is your opinion  on Australian rugby?

SJ- Awesome. I saw my first Wallabies in the late 1960s, while the 1991 Wallabies World Cup winning team proved that you could be human and approachable and great to watch as well as being successful. Please rehab Campo. He was staggering. Nick FJ (Farr-Jones) and Noddy (Michael Lynagh) were sensational. There is a brilliant self-help spirit in Australia, and clearly, an urgent need for a few results.

And finally, they can talk or write good rugby. Bob Dwyer’s columns in the UK Sunday Times in his time here, were the best on the sport I have experienced. Peter Fitzsimons is off the wall and rather lovely. The Growden feller wrote a great book on Rusty Richards. Noddy is still the best summariser on UK TV, and I love Kearns and his pals on Aussie TV.

Almost convinced me to back the ELVs.